Rather tangential to this, but I've always had trouble getting up early and maintaining that schedule. A little over a month ago I changed my diet to reduce carbs as much as possible, and I've never felt so alert and awake. Waking up early went from a grueling task to something that just happens naturally. I know this is just one anecdote, but I wonder if some of the mentioned people might also benefit from trying different diets.
whenever someone brings up the fact a sizeable portion of the population is forced into an unnatural sleep rythm; inevitably someone will chime in with a "I forced myself with method X and now I'm normal".
I'm not sure it does. Their "natural" habits aren't necessarily all that natural either. For all you know, a diet change really did correct an underlying issue causing the strange habit.
We're talking about 1/5th of the population suffering needlessly. The comment I replied to merely reinforces the stereotype that there is something wrong with them - "If only you lived better you would get to sleep at a normal time". On its own, its great they have improved their life. But in context its disrespectful.
If you're insulting a plausible opposing opinion as disrespectful, you should be backing up your claim with facts. You suggested that people are "naturally" night owls, the other side suggests that nightowlism may be caused by lifestyle choices and that many night owls are unaware of this causality. There is nothing disrespectful about either side of the argument, both are just hypotheses at this point (and a bit of anecdata).
Further nobody questions the legitimacy of "early risers" and blames it on lifestyle. In fact most consider it a positive and something to aspire to. When you go your whole life having to dispel the initial impression of laziness due to your natural sleep rythmn it becomes personal. I'm fortunate that I've come to a place in my career where I can simply live with my natural rythmn, but most people don't get the chance.
> Further nobody questions the legitimacy of "early risers" and blames it on lifestyle.
Because being an early riser is adaptive. We're not at all well adapted to operating at night given our sensory apparatus, we're quite well adapted to operate in daylight.
Furthermore, humans aren't genetically predetermined creatures, it's entirely possible to change virtually all of our behaviours and inclinations with the right environmental changes.
Even if being a nightowl were adaptive at one point, that doesn't mean it's adaptive now, and a maladaptive behaviour needs correcting if you want to function in modern society.
> When you go your whole life having to dispel the initial impression of laziness due to your natural sleep rythmn it becomes personal.
Don't go pushing your personal prejudice on a factual discussion. No one here called "nightowls" lazy.
Its crazy in this day and age its considered OK to call perfectly healthy people "maladapted" because they don't conform to societies view of a normal sleep schedule. Treating people this way causes real damage to actual humans.
Second sleeps used to be very common with people getting useful work and liesure done during the time between. Activity at night is normal.
> Its crazy in this day and age its considered OK to call perfectly healthy people "maladapted" because they don't conform to societies view of a normal sleep schedule.
"Maladapted" in this case literally means "poorly suited to functioning in typical jobs". Society's normal sleep schedule is exactly what makes night owls maladapted to most jobs.
Of course, you're incorrectly reading some sort of moral judgment in this classification, as you have with many other posts. You should try to be a little more impartial when discussing basic facts.
9-5 is an arbitrary restriction on a typical office job. The majority of us no longer perform shift work on the factory floor which was the original impetus for this societal norm.
You are recounting society as it exists today which is abnormal in a historical context. I am speaking of a society that could exist. One where 1/5th the population is not needlessly forced through life exhausted and under performing. Not only would productivity be higher, but we'd get more use out of our otherwise vacant buildings at night. Rush hour would be greatly diminished if not everyone had to arrive at work exactly the same time.
Flex hours are a simple and mainstream solution that more companies should adopt. But it has to start with an appreciation that night owls are not "defective" or as you say, "maladapted".
> 9-5 is an arbitrary restriction on a typical office job.
It doesn't matter if it's arbitrary, what matters is whether a person's habits can easily conform or adapt to its environment. Those that do not, or that cause other problems are maladaptive by definition.
> But it has to start with an appreciation that night owls are not "defective" or as you say, "maladapted".
> The comment I replied to merely reinforces the stereotype that there is something wrong with them - "If only you lived better you would get to sleep at a normal time".
The comment you replied to neither said or implied anything of the sort. He merely conveyed a personal anecdote of an environmental change that allowed a self-identified night owl to function well on a daylight schedule. What's so offensive about that?
I naturally like to conserve energy and eat sugar but I can motivate myself to move and eat healthy to the point it becomes more natural.
I think people are naturally predisposed to certain behaviors but it's not a sealed fate. Diet, exercise and environment might even be more dominant factors.
Having setup my life so I can simply sleep and rise naturally I'm living a perfectly normal and happy life - more productive than ever. There is nothing wrong with me and its not a terrible "fate".
What is terrible is that we don't accept that some people have different sleep schedules.
Yeah, absolutely nothing wrong with being who you are. But I think there's nothing wrong with people who change their diet, exercise, environment, etc. to develop a new habit.
Its not a "habit", its hard-coded and there is strong evidence that forcing your sleep schedule to change has negative health consequences. Underlying all this is an insinuation that if you just eat better and exercised you'd wake up at a normal time. Night owls do get exercise and eat healthily. This advice never seems to be applied to early risers, it comes from a cultural perception of night owls as defective.
Maybe. I was a night owl for 30+ years, but then had the same experience as OC when my other habits changed my sleep cycle changed too without any of the grogginess and frustration I had before when I only tried to change my sleep pattern.
Bodies are different though so no doubt our experiences may be very different.
I'm happy it worked for you, but I consider us victims of a society that arbitrarily enforces waking hours. There's no reason a programmer can't work noon to 8 if that works better with their sleep schedule. Ditto for most other office jobs. Core hours are reasonable compromises.
On the one hand our lives will be easier if we just got with the program. But things will never get better if we acquiesce.
